Amazon to acquire Globalstar and expand Amazon Leo satellite network

(businesswire.com)

92 pontos | por homarp 13 horas atrás

10 comentários

  • crowcroft
    7 horas atrás
    Naive question - let's assume this all becomes a really competitive market and 10+ companies are pumping satellites into orbit.

    Are we going to run out of space?

    At some point it probably makes the most sense for there to be one wholesaler of satellite connections and then many retailers right? The market skews towards being an international natural monopoly, right?

    • newpavlov
      7 horas atrás
      >Are we going to run out of space?

      In a certain sense, we do. Pumping thousands satellites to LEO increases probability of triggering the Kessler syndrome. Luckily, LEO orbits are also self-cleaning on reasonable time scales (decades), so I think that some day we will trigger it (potentially, with some "help" from anti-satellite weapons) after which some kind of international regulation will be introduced to prevent repeating it in future.

    • lxgr
      7 horas atrás
      I'd say there's plenty of room for competitors along multiple dimensions: Geopolitical security (this alone will probably preclude a single monopoly), price and lack of a moat (once a monopolist starts jacking up prices, there's an immediate incentive for an alternative), delivery profile (store-and-forward for IoT-like use cases vs. dumb pipe vs. in-space forwarding), frequency band (L- or S-band for direct to device vs. Ku/Ka band requiring directional terminals) etc.

      The only thing that's actually scarce and that could be monopolized rather easily is frequency spectrum. In fact, I suspect this to be a frequency/operating license driven acquisition.

  • supernova87a
    9 horas atrás
    I remain convinced that the main successful business model in the satellite communications industry is to wait for the first incarnation of the satellite company to fail / go bankrupt / flounder, and then be part of the 2nd round of financing or ownership that comes in to buy it out and operate it... I don't know why this is the pattern but it seems to have played out several times over the last 2 decades that I've casually watched this syndrome.
    • gangstead
      7 horas atrás
      They were about $3 billion in the hole when they went through bankruptcy in 2002 and the new owners bought it for $43 million (from Wikipedia). In 2025 they earned a return of $-8 million on that investment (plus any other money raised since then, such as $1 billion from Apple). So even the second incarnation doesn't seem to be a good business model even with free satellites.

      The business model that works seems to be spectrum gambling. Do the minimum amount of satellite investment for decades until someone with a real business plan comes along and has to go through you to get it.

    • chiph
      8 horas atrás
      If you haven't read Eccentric Orbits: The Iridium Story you should. The system was operational, but Motorola's dysfunction and impossible sales goals leading to disillusionment meant that Dan Colussy & team was able to pick it up for $25 million (development price: $5 billion)
    • vitorsr
      6 horas atrás
      Or become a major investor on a largely public funded project with commitments set to start at a delayed time in order to benefit from R&D before bearing financial burden. (See [1].)

      [1] https://www.ft.com/content/8e75ed31-0c72-4160-b406-1ca6aa36a...

    • Zigurd
      7 horas atrás
      Iridium was first. It was a cautionary lesson. Listen to Patrick Boyle regarding Starlink. Not everyone was paying attention in class.
    • NitpickLawyer
      6 horas atrás
      > to fail / go bankrupt / flounder

      This is exactly what "the Internet" said about spacex when they announced Starlink. Oh, it never worked. LEO constellations were tried in the 90s, ALL of them failed. Haha, it will never work. 14k satellites, that's insane, dreams, lies, hahaha.

      ... and yet, they are now at ~10k satellites launched, and are serving 9+mil customers, for some unknown billions/year in revenue (should become clear in a few months when they IPO).

    • AnimalMuppet
      7 horas atrás
      You see the same pattern with railroads from 1860 to 1900.
    • vjvjvjvjghv
      8 horas atrás
      Or also owning a rocket company that launches your satellites at low cost.
    • SMAAART
      8 horas atrás
      Clayton M. Christensen (The innovator's dilemma) would agree.
  • spondyl
    10 horas atrás
    Oh, I missed the memo that Amazon Leo is the new name for Project Kuiper, rebranded in November of last year. I saw a presentation back when it was Kuiper so have still been calling it that
  • jameslk
    11 horas atrás
    SpaceX and Amazon seem to be headed for competing with traditional telecoms and ISPs. I'm betting the next acquisition target will be AST SpaceMobile. I also wouldn’t be surprised to see big telecom/ISP mergers pass regulatory approval now that they have competition from the heavens
    • Zigurd
      6 horas atrás
      They'll try. But they are between two forces squeezing the TAM:

      The anvil: satellites can't serve most people in a densely populated area, whereas terrestrial wireless can be engineered and deployed to serve any population density, even tens of thousands of people in a stadium.

      The hammer: electronics get cheaper faster when they don't have to be space grade, and electronics get cheaper faster than rockets. As they get cheaper, terrestrial wireless will be deployed in more areas that are uneconomical right now.

      And that is how the satellite TAM gets slammed.

    • cubefox
      9 horas atrás
      > SpaceX and Amazon seem to be headed for competing with traditional telecoms and ISPs.

      Traditional ISPs already have a nice network of copper and fiber optic cables. I don't think satellites offer any advantage to most people here, except for those living in an area with slow wired connections.

      • lxgr
        6 horas atrás
        Intercontinental latency in air/vacuum is lower than in fiber (even in total, i.e. after accounting for the extra distance from ground and the legs up and down from/space), so there’s also a market for high frequency trading.
      • direwolf20
        7 horas atrás
        It's all about bypassing regulations, just like Uber and AirBNB. Most US ISPs have old copper cables that only support DSL. Upgrading them means digging up the streets and that's expensive and a legal minefield. And those ISPs are local monopolies so why would they spend money just to keep the same number of customers who are locked in anyway?
        • reportingsjr
          7 horas atrás
          I don't think that is very true in this day in age. Here in Cincinnati, the vast majority of houses now have fiber run to them. There are still some stragglers, but that's mainly because slumlord apartment owners don't feel like dealing with upgrades.
    • RobotToaster
      11 horas atrás
      > I'm betting the next acquisition target will be AST SpaceMobile.

      Or possibly viasat.

  • Ekaros
    11 horas atrás
    I wonder if there will become a point where these companies will be considered too big and will be forcibly cut up to smaller chunks... If feels like they have tentacles in everything now.
    • nutjob2
      8 horas atrás
      There is no such thing as a company being "too big", it's only a question of market power (eg monopolies) and abuse of that power.

      For LEO data it seems that there will be plenty of competition. If you're talking about Amazon, they're in fiercely competitive markets. Them having the capital and cash flow ('size') to launch a competitor to SpazX is only a good thing.

  • Egonex
    9 horas atrás
    People think that with better D2D technology, emergency and telemetry messages will still be short and to the point. These messages will not be like streaming videos.

    When companies work together on things, like spectrum and constellations and handset deals it changes how people get billed.. It does not change the fact that people want to keep the messages small when millions of devices are using the same channel.

    I am curious to see if people will still talk about having satellite access or if they will start talking about paying for what they use once this is up and running. D2D technology is still going to be used for these messages.

    • lxgr
      7 horas atrás
      With small enough spot beams, the difference between a large rural cell and a very narrow direct-to-device spot beam footprint is really not that big anymore. Starlink apparently already offers video calling over direct to cell in the US via T-Mobile!
    • bobdvb
      8 horas atrás
      Spectrum contention is going to be insane in D2D.

      Starlink already has to constrain the number of broadband accounts per locale to avoid saturation.

      • lxgr
        7 horas atrás
        Fixed Starlink is competing with fiber/DOCSIS/DSL, though. That's orders of magnitude more bandwidth than people in areas remote enough to not warrant a terrestrial cell base station (which could itself also be backhauled over much more efficient fixed satellite).
  • lxgr
    7 horas atrás
    See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47770323 My comment from there:

    Interesting, I was expecting Apple to eventually buy them.

    Still, makes sense to me: The aging Globalstar satellite constellation itself is probably not very interesting to Amazon, but their global L-band and S-band spectrum is, as are their existing licenses to operate a mobile satellite service in most countries.

  • kumarvvr
    13 horas atrás
    So, Amazon wants to own the tubes too?

    I guess the stack should be completed with this. AWS servers, satellite communications, boxes to view content on TVs, apps on mobiles, content creation studios, advertising, product placement, product sales. Whew!

    I guess they also want expertise to launch stuff into space, in case it becomes feasible to run space data centers.

    • karavelov
      12 horas atrás
      > I guess they also want expertise to launch stuff into space

      Blue Origin is Jeff Bezos' private aerospace company

    • ge96
      12 horas atrás
      Amazon seems to have a service for everything, one time I saw they had satellite ground station as a service
      • compounding_it
        12 horas atrás
        I think America in general is moving to a service based economy where you don’t own anything anymore. Everything from cars (lease) to homes (rentals) to electronics to insurance etc comes at a monthly cost. This kind of model works when the central government is trusted (or at least perceived to be trusted) to keep the wheel churning. I think the current government took some of the power back from big tech and people didn’t like it. Very interesting because the whole argument was private companies having too much power. Now the argument is government having too much power.
        • vjvjvjvjghv
          8 horas atrás
          At some point government and companies will be merging into one.
        • enos_feedler
          12 horas atrás
          You only now just think this? The writing has been on the wall for quite some time. Especially as you move down in age cohort.
      • jasoncartwright
        12 horas atrás
    • bigfatkitten
      11 horas atrás
      Probably for their existing L/S-band spectrum and carrier licenses.
    • trhway
      11 horas atrás
      They would also need to protect all this stuff spread globally and into the space. No government will be able to do that - like we've already seen with the datacenters being hit in the Gulf states. Company like AMZN will have all the components for the most modern weapon system - global autonomous drone offense and defense network with the space component (or imagine a 1 GW datacenter in space temporarily rerouting its power into a laser or a microwave effector 80-ies StarWars style :) plus de-facto global intelligence network that each of these companies have, and thus will have and will be able to better protect themselves. Those large BigTechs will unavoidably have to move into defense, for themselves and as-a-service for smaller transnationals.
      • iso1631
        11 horas atrás
        There is a constant lack of acceptance of the privatisation of the world in the tech industry. Or of course people realise it but like it.

        The randian matra of "Private = good, government = bad" always wins out

        You end up with a private company run by the elite, not the people. One Dollar One Vote.

    • piokoch
      12 horas atrás
      Why space data centers? What advantage this would have? Cooling will be a big issue, while it is easily solved on the planet earth, as we have water, air that can transfer heat away.
      • bigfatkitten
        11 horas atrás
        They don’t have any advantages at all.

        People point to the cost of land, but if being physically inaccessible isn’t a problem, then there are lots of cheap places on Earth you can deploy data centres too at far lower cost than launching them into orbit.

        • philipwhiuk
          8 horas atrás
          For now there's a regulatory oversight advantage (or rather lack of same).
        • iso1631
          11 horas atrás
          Desert land is free. Floating data centres in the middle of the pacific is free.

          If a state, or even rich billionaire, wanted to take out your data centre in low earth orbit, it's only a few million dollars to launch a retrograde rocket which explodes into 10 ton of shrapnel, or even less to forget the orbit and just launch it directly up.

          • philipwhiuk
            8 horas atrás
            You can do the same to the ones in the Pacific and desert too.

            It's a declaration of war much the same.

      • sublinear
        11 horas atrás
        Defense systems in space need to be... in space.

        I don't think people are looking at this the right way. They need to be inaccessible to terrestrial and air weapons, have lower latency, not be dependent on power plants, etc.

        • iso1631
          10 horas atrás
          Far easier for someone like Iran or China or the US to take out an LEO satellite than an underground data centre, or even a surface on in the case of DCs in US or China.
          • ericmay
            7 horas atrás
            I don’t think Iran has the capability to shoot down LEO satellites. Kind of weird to loop them in with China here other than China helping Iran.
            • lxgr
              6 horas atrás
              Iran has a space program capable of launching LEO satellites.
            • iso1631
              6 horas atrás
              You need about 2,500m/s delta V to reach LEO altitude. Iranian long range rockets are well in that range.

              It's thus far easier for Iran to hit an LEO DC than one in Colorado

              • ericmay
                6 horas atrás
                Are you suggesting for a fact that Iran as the guidance and targeting systems to identify specific LEO objects, and fire missiles at those targets with accuracy?
          • sublinear
            8 horas atrás
            It's also pretty easy to launch another one into orbit to replace it? I'm not sure I understand what you mean. We can have all these options simultaneously. The easiest targets are where the faster paced more offensive action is going to be.

            People have been talking about waging war in space for many decades now. All the arguments for and against it were made a very long time ago, and it was decided it's a hell of a lot better that way. Even a nuclear blast in orbit is more tolerable.

            Space superiority is just too damn appealing as the next frontier after land, air, and sea where we've been stuck in stalemate for a while. It's perfectly natural we go to space for this, including the datacenters.

        • RobotToaster
          11 horas atrás
          That's true, but they're also very vulnerable to ground based LASERs.
      • trhway
        11 horas atrás
        >Cooling will be a big issue

        a 1m2 at 70C radiates 785 Watt. Seems thet cooling will be more simple than on Earth.

        • pretendgeneer
          11 horas atrás
          A 1m2 heatsink/fan on earth can sink kWs. My heatpump is about 1m2 area and can sink 15kw. Seems earth is at least 20x times better.
          • iso1631
            10 horas atrás
            If you build a pyramid with the base pointing to the sun (as solar), and a "height" about 5 times the base in constant shadow, with decent internal circulation, that will operate at sub-20C just from the two radiative sides pointing away from Earth (you make the earth pointing sides reflective)

            Cooling isn't an issue.

          • trhway
            11 horas atrás
            in space 1m2 of thin metal will radiate those 785 watt. No fan, no heatpump, nothing. Only the launch cost. Which given the projected Starship launch cost will be cheaper than installation on Earth.
      • nish__
        12 horas atrás
        You don't have to buy real estate.
        • iso1631
          10 horas atrás
          Land is pretty much irellevent in the cost.

          The Utah Data Center [0] is a 200 acre plot with 35 acres of buildings.

          Even prime farmland values is arround $10k an acre, or $2m, but for other land you're talking $400k for that much land [1]

          It uses 65MW. The solar panels alone to generate that cost $100 per kW in bulk, or $6.5m.

          That's 570GWh a year.

          Mount Signal 1 Solar plant, from over a decade ago, produces about that currently. Total cost $365m [2].

          Then there's the lifetime? What do you do in 36 months time when you want to replace the hardware with the latest generation? In an earthbound one you turn off the rack, remove the old kit, put the new kit in. In space, it just burns up in the atmosphere.

          [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center

          [1] https://www.land.com/property/201-acres-in-brown-county-nebr...

          [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Signal_Solar

          • nish__
            10 horas atrás
            Not for the data center, for the fiber lines.
            • iso1631
              6 horas atrás
              Pretty much zero cost. Or just use your satellite capacity you'd use from your space based DC.
  • ck2
    10 horas atrás
    Are we going to be able to see the night sky by the end of this decade?

    https://satellitemap.space

    And what's the effect on cancer rates, etc. from all that toxic pollution to both launch the satellites and then vaporize them in the atmosphere years later?

    https://bloomberg.com/graphics/2025-space-orbit-satellites-p...

    Sure would be nice if the answers to these questions were not guessing before we do the damage and impossible to fix after

  • ButlerianJihad
    11 horas atrás
    [flagged]
    • nixass
      11 horas atrás
      If something hits a house then you can analyze what hit it. I wouldn't make a conspiracy out of it. Meteor and space junk are quite different things.
      • ButlerianJihad
        11 horas atrás
        You can, but what if they don’t want to?
        • aniviacat
          10 horas atrás
          Space junk would come down in other countries, too. Even if there was a great conspiracy of "them" in the USA, there's plenty of others to report on it.
          • ButlerianJihad
            10 horas atrás
            Reporting on something is rather late after it’s already hit its target, don’t you think?

            The key to strategic usage of deorbiting is that the mass is already in position, and only needs to be properly wielded.

            No amount of “investigation” or reporting would stop that from happening.

        • nixass
          10 horas atrás
          "they"